A creationist's view that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

[Gandalf The White]

Radioactive decay rates can increase by a factor of 1,000,000,000 !!!

Hmm ...

[Gandalf The White]

Further to the issue:



I take it you are familiar with the book "Dune"? Dune is a 1965 epic science fiction novel by Frank Herbert. It won the Hugo Award in 1966, and the inaugural Nebula Award for Best Novel.

The movie is a Sci-Fi classic of the 20th century.

A character in the book and movie is called Stilgar.

When Paul Atreides takes on his Freman name, Stilgar informs him of the name given to the mouse-like shadow on their second moon - Muad'Dib

The naming ceremony of Usul (also known as Paul Muad'Dib) shows Stilgar speaking with an unusual emphasis on consonants.




Now, imagine Stilgar is speaking these words:


A day is a day.

It is the same word.





Now, the modern Christian is loath to accept the Genesis story of the Earth being created in 6 days.
Why?

Of course, the answer is that the modern Christian is terrified that their religion will be debunked as most educated people in the 21st century cannot
swallow the story of a 6 day creation.

The evidence is against it.


Surely an omnipotent God could create the Earth in 6 days if S/He wanted to?
Perhaps in under 6 seconds, or even under a nanosecond?



A nanosecond is one billionth of a second.

10-9 or 1/1,000,000,000 of a second.

We are told specifically that "God" created the Earth not in a nanosecond, not in a second, not in a minute, not in an hour, but in 6 days.

That's 518,400 seconds or 518,400,000,000,000 nanoseconds.





The modern Christian is desperate to twist the 6 day story into a period covering billions of years.
This is to appease the modern audience.

Of course, by doing so, the modern Christian thinks they are assuaging the doubts of their audience and themselves.
(Although it seems incongruous that they would try to diminish the power of their God by placing an extended time period on the creation story.)

The fact is, the story does not talk about a period of billions of years, it doesn't even say something along the lines of a very long time passing...

It specifically says 6 days.

In fact it refers to the evening and the morning of the first day (i.e. 24 hours) Yom as a period of one day.

Genesis 1.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1.13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1.14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Genesis 1.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1.23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1.31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

It uses the word for day, (yom) which is the same word used throughout the Bible.

e.g. 40 days in the wilderness.

Rained for 40 days and 40 nights.

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month.

... and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth.
Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.
But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark.
He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark.
When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.
He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.

By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth.
Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.
By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.

OK ... the Bible is using the same word for day throughout.


Now, imagine Stilgar is speaking these words:


A day is a day.

It is the same word.





www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfligs2SLBw


The Bible says the Earth was created in 6 days.

Own it or shut up.


You either believe the story or you don't.




Aaaaaaaaand ... send.

[Gandalf The White]

It's clear as crystal, a period of one day, an evening and a morning for each day, described clearly and unambiguously in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible.

Creation took 6 days according to the holy book.

Believe it or not.



Care to try for hurdle number 2?


2.Rule of Usage.
Don't add meaning to established words and terms. What was the common usage in the cultural and time period when the passage was written?


What was a yom at the time of writing this inspired word of God?

[Hint: a day is a day - it is the same word.] Especially as any confusion is eliminated by the inclusion of the words : An evening and a morning, the first day. etc.

[Gandalf The White]

Indeed the word yom can mean an indeterminate time, which is why I pointed out the unequivocal rider from the inspired word of God which clears the meaning up perfectly.



Take another look at the actual words in chapter 1 book 1 of the Bible.
(Reproduced for you further down.)



Then, do you want to try for hurdle number 3?

3.Rule of Context.
Avoid using words out of context. Context must define terms and how words are used.

The context is within the first evening and morning. The Sun and Moon are referred to as markers for the passing of day and night within the same chapter.
The verses follow on from each other.







Just live with it.


The Bible says the Earth was created in 6 days.

Own it or shut up.


You either believe the story or you don't.

[Gandalf The White]

Well then, gird up your loins and try hurdle #4 ...


4.Rule of Historical background.
Don't separate interpretation and historical investigation.


The canonisation of the book of Genesis clearly covers hurdle #4.
The inclusion of "evening and morning" the first day etc. - are the result of Biblical scholars (O.K. really a bunch of crusty old Catholics in the main) agreeing on the translation and context of the original words. i.e. the words have been pored over for centuries and conclusions reached.


A day is a day

It is the same word.

[Gandalf The White]

On to hurdle number 5!


5.Rule of Logic.
Be certain that words as interpreted agree with the overall premise.



Indeed!

The first chapter of the first book of the Bible, is all about God creating the Earth and Heavens. In 6 days.

These are real days, as explained by the reference to the evening and the morning of each day.

The Sun and Moon are mentioned also, as markers for the passing of time, night, day, months and years.


Behold!!! ....





Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)


1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.




Open and shut case.
Crystal clear.
No ambiguity.


Enjoy!



You either believe the story, or you don't.






Then, on to hurdle number 6!!



Sneak preview of hurdle #6 ...


6.Rule of Precedent.
Use the known and commonly accepted meanings of words, not obscure meanings for which there is no precedent.

More on this one next time.

[Gandalf The White]

I have a question for you ...

What does Yom Kippur ^* mean?



That's an example of hurdle #6 ...


6.Rule of Precedent.
Use the known and commonly accepted meanings of words, not obscure meanings for which there is no precedent.

A day is a day.


It is the same word.





















[Hint:
* Yom Kippur also known as Day of Atonement, is the holiest day of the year for the Jewish people. Its central themes are atonement and repentance.

Yom Kippur 2013 began in the evening of
Friday, September 13
and ended in the evening of
Saturday, September 14


Well, what d'ya know! a DAY (24 hours) of atonement. ]

[Gandalf The White]

On to hurdle number 7 !!!



7.Rule of Unity.
Even though many documents may be used there must be a general unity among them.


You will note that the reference to evening and morning, the Sun and Moon etc. all take place in the same chapter of the same book!


Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)


1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.




A day is a day.

It is the same word.


You either believe the story, or you don't.

[Gandalf The White]

Now for the final hurdle ...

Number 8



8.Rule of Inference.
Base conclusions on what is already known and proven or can be reasonably implied from all known facts.


From people's failure to comprehend the unambiguous written word : that a day is a day ...
We can safely infer that they are flipping idiots!



A day is a day.

It is the same word.



You either believe the story, or you don't.

[Gandalf The White]

The next topic of discussion is how the Bible is absolute BOLLOCKS!

Not only is the creation story ridiculous in terms of the 6 day claims, the order of operations is complete rubbish!


Notice this? :

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


How can vegetation that requires photosynthesis be in place , grasses and fruit trees ... BEFORE the Sun is in place?!!!!




You either believe the story, or you don't.

[Gandalf The White]

I was reading the other night in A Short History Of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson about the discovery of the age of the Earth ...


Aristotle thought the earth had existed eternally. Roman poet Lucretius, intellectual heir to the Greek atomists, believed its formation must have been relatively recent, given that there were no records going back beyond the Trojan War. The Talmudic rabbis, Martin Luther and others used the biblical account to extrapolate back from known history and came up with rather similar estimates for when the earth came into being. The most famous came in 1654, when Archbishop James Ussher of Ireland offered the date of 4004 B.C.

It may surprise some, that it was not until 1926 that a credible age of the Earth was figured out.
The current understanding is that the earth is 4.55 billion years old.
The radiometric date of meteorites has played the most important role in dating the Earth.

[Gandalf The White]

A compelling argument against the Earth being the same age as the rest of the Universe and being only approx. 6,000 years old:

[Gandalf The White]

www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx



In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins
Highly religious Americans most likely to believe in creationism
by Frank Newport
PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. The prevalence of this creationist view of the origin of humans is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago, when Gallup first asked the question. About a third of Americans believe that humans evolved, but with God's guidance; 15% say humans evolved, but that God had no part in the process.





Gallup has asked Americans to choose among these three explanations for the origin and development of human beings 11 times since 1982. Although the percentages choosing each view have varied from survey to survey, the 46% who today choose the creationist explanation is virtually the same as the 45% average over that period -- and very similar to the 44% who chose that explanation in 1982. The 32% who choose the "theistic evolution" view that humans evolved under God's guidance is slightly below the 30-year average of 37%, while the 15% choosing the secular evolution view is slightly higher (12%).

The Most Religious Americans Are Most Likely to Be Creationists

Gallup's question wording explicitly frames the three alternatives in terms of God's involvement in the process of human development, making it less than surprising to find that the more religious the American, the more likely he or she is to choose the creationist viewpoint.




Two-thirds (67%) of Americans who attend religious services weekly choose the creationist alternative, compared with 25% of those who say they seldom or never attend church. The views of Americans who attend almost every week or monthly fall in between those of the other two groups. Still, those who seldom or never attend church are more likely to believe that God guided the evolutionary process than to believe that humans evolved with no input from God.

[occamsspork]

You have made a few assumptions, that have resulted in circular reasoning.
1. Time is relative, so what of things such as time dilation?
creation.com/new-time-dilation-helps-creation-cosmology
2. You presume conditions in the universe have remained uniform since the onset.
In our time of climate change, you can't deny a sudden change can skew any scientific hypothesis.

I've actually read up on this before, but it will take some digging before I can remember where I've read it.

[occamsspork]

May 30, 2019 17:09:52 GMT 10 Gandalf The White said:

The next topic of discussion is how the Bible is absolute BOLLOCKS!

Not only is the creation story ridiculous in terms of the 6 day claims, the order of operations is complete rubbish!


Notice this? :

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


How can vegetation that requires photosynthesis be in place , grasses and fruit trees ... BEFORE the Sun is in place?!!!!




You either believe the story, or you don't.

I believe.
Your presumption here is that light must be connected to the sun. Another assumption is that this light is mere incandescence and not material. In our modern understanding, we know that light can be made from other sources besides the typical fire—incandescent light bulbs, LEDs, nuclear reactions, plasma, etc. Think of a flashlight, for example. Heat can also be produced from other sources.
Angels are also described as 'luminaries'. They were created on day 1; so light existed prior to the sun's creation.

The Bible also says the light was separated from the darkness (day 1) before the creation of the sun. (day 3), or the stars (day 4)
Ephrem the Syrian (306–373 AD) was an apologist, a hymnographer, and a theologian in Edessa, Syria. Ephrem speculated that the first light was like a huge bright mist or a pillar of fire and that after day 3 ended, God repurposed that light (and its heat) into the sun, moon, and stars.